I have heard talk of interest in starting some kind of group to work on issues of sexism in our community. Something in the vein of the Phily Dudes Collective. I wanted to post to encourage/nurture this desire because it is something I would really like to see happen!
We live in a really dude oriented city. It seems to be considered appropriate to use words like bitch, whore, fag, ect. even in radical circles. What up with that? I don't like to think that Milwaukee is that backwards, and I don't want to stifel people with endless debates about being more PC or sensitive but I see a huge gap between what people say they are about and how the speak and act.

I think it's vital that a group of this nature exists, especially in a city with such a high population of male-identified anarchists. On that note, a couple of us have been using a zine provided by the Philly Dudes Collective as inspiration. I have also spoken with the fine folks at Broad Vocabulary about having meetings there since it is one of the few spaces not dominated by men.

Thanks katestreets for posting this and gettin the fire started.

Do words, especially words used in a manner that is generally accepted as not being serious, reflect on any sort of real (hetero/)sexism within the community, or rather, does the use of those words alone make one sexist? I've certainly seem some instances where the language used was entirely inappropriate, and been guilty of it myself, but I don't think there's a need to completely police our use of language to the point where we don't say anything remotely offensive for fear of stepping on somebody's toes. One of the things I've liked about the Milwaukee scene is that we make some crude and sometimes off-color remarks from time to time, but generally in a humorous way not meant to hurt anybody, and only around those who recognize that. Is this a problem? I don't think so.

While it is obviously important to call out, challenge and deal with any and all manifestations of oppression that appear within our circles, I don't really think that is one of them and can think of far bigger problems we could talk about.

One concern: this project isn't going to become one of those "Why aren't we attracting more women/people of color/gays/immigrants/space-aliens?!" type of things, where everyone then falls over themselves to attract individuals from those groups in the most patronizing way possible, is it? I'm all for examining people's concerns about individual behavior within radical circles that is questionable (within reason... we're all fucked up, and we should be way of finger pointing at anybody, and examining why it is that this city (or anarchist circles in general?) appear to be more male-oriented or male-dominated, but we should be careful with what those conclusions lead us in to.

Just my two (er, twenty) cents.

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The Spectacle wished to make us appear dreadful. We intend to be much worse.

I think it's important to talk about sexism in the radical community. However, I am encouraged by the number of women who are active in radical projects in Milwaukee. Many of the meetings and actions I attend are populated by women with strong, revolutionary personalities. That hasn't always been the case in other organizations that I've been a part of.

This brings up a similar question in relation to other forms of oppression. Why aren't radical men confronting other radical men about their sexism, racism, homophobia, etc? What is the role of men in the process of confronting sexism, racism, etc? If the men (myself included) in our community are truly working on building solidarity, it should start in their personal relationships and day-to-day interactions. We should not allow comments or jokes to go unchallenged. Would we allow someone at work, school, or at the grocery store to make sexist comments in public? Then why should we allow it at the CCC?

Just a couple of thoughts,
guyute

Do words, especially words used in a manner that is generally accepted as not being serious, reflect on any sort of real (hetero/)sexism within the community, or rather, does the use of those words alone make one sexist? I've certainly seem some instances where the language used was entirely inappropriate, and been guilty of it myself, but I don't think there's a need to completely police our use of language to the point where we don't say anything remotely offensive for fear of stepping on somebody's toes. One of the things I've liked about the Milwaukee scene is that we make some crude and sometimes off-color remarks from time to time, but generally in a humorous way not meant to hurt anybody, and only around those who recognize that. Is this a problem? I don't think so.


Most of the talking done at this point has been addressing issues of domination and privilege within the radical community and that will most likely include language people feel to be threatening or at least perceived as hostile. However, this should not be viewed as a chance to attack anyone for being less "p.c." than anyone else.

"While it is obviously important to call out, challenge and deal with any and all manifestations of oppression that appear within our circles, I don't really think that is one of them and can think of far bigger problems we could talk about."


I think that perspective is one aspect of male privilege we should discuss more in-depth. As men we are able to say "sexism or heterosexism is not a problem" but when many women I know have expressed that they feel Milwaukee is a very dude-oriented community then it obviously is a problem.

One concern: this project isn't going to become one of those "Why aren't we attracting more women/people of color/gays/immigrants/space-aliens?!" type of things, where everyone then falls over themselves to attract individuals from those groups in the most patronizing way possible, is it? I'm all for examining people's concerns about individual behavior within radical circles that is questionable (within reason... we're all fucked up, and we should be way of finger pointing at anybody, and examining why it is that this city (or anarchist circles in general?) appear to be more male-oriented or male-dominated, but we should be careful with what those conclusions lead us in to.

I personally would like to see those already in our radical community take part in this project. If other folks wish to come then that would be awesome but I think the focus should be smaller. This has just been my response GP, and bear in mind that none of this is meant to insult you, just my own twenty cents.

"I personally would like to see those already in our radical community take part in this project. If other folks wish to come then that would be awesome but I think the focus should be smaller. This has just been my response GP, and bear in mind that none of this is meant to insult you, just my own twenty cents."

I don't think that's what GP meant at all when he was talking about feeling guilty that we haven't met our quota for different kinds of people. Why different kinds of people don't feel like being involved is complex, and they can always use some discussing. Discussing ways we can treat each other better is very important but it won't be productive if we just wallow in our guilt.

Why is anarchy in the US for the most part male identified dominated (in terms of representation), and why is it for the most part white?

I feel it's to some extent related to the popular representation of anarchy (not necessarily our representation) as an intense often violent negation of the existing social order and the means to achieve this negation are generally gendered masculine. I like to think that all people can be fierce and defend themselves and their communities if necessary with (not just a bunch of angry men). Anarchy is more than just a negation, it's about building meaningful non-hierarchical relationships and sustainable autonomous communities. We aren't represented this way. I feel that because of the way our society opperates and distributes information the popular represenation of an idea plays into its initial attraction and interest, therefore you get people who are more generally male identified or at least are more ok with ideas and their representations that are more gendered male.

The sad thing is that as long as this society exists we will find it extremely hard to win the representation battle. It is represenation, roles, mediation, hierarchy, etc and we are against it.

How can we combat this to allow female indentified individuals and people of color to feel more welcome and interested projects that we would like to be more diverse and help the general community?

Should we really be starting all white male identified groups and then worrying about it or we should be out building meaningful relationships of affinity in our daily lives and then when issues and problems arise we work together?

Diversity takes a really long time and is extremely complex, but that's not an excuse to feel guilty about our privilidge (unless we're doing nothing to challenge it) or to lessen its importance.

My above comment should not be confused to mean that I don't view this as very important or that I don't think how we relate to each other in our daily lives is important. Sexism (one of the countless number of interelated hierarchies) is a part of the radical community and needs to be dealt with, if we are to ever be sucessful.

guyute wrote:

We should not allow comments or jokes to go unchallenged. Would we allow someone at work, school, or at the grocery store to make sexist comments in public? Then why should we allow it at the CCC?

I think the important thing to consider is context. Is the comment/joke meant to be sexist, or is it actually done ironically or in a non-serious manner to ridicule those things? I don't think some comments or jokes mean one has a sexist mindset.

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Quote:

Most of the talking done at this point has been addressing issues of domination and privilege within the radical community and that will most likely include language people feel to be threatening or at least perceived as hostile. However, this should not be viewed as a chance to attack anyone for being less "p.c." than anyone else.

It "shouldn't" be viewed that way, but if we're going to talk about issues of language I can think of a handful of people right off hand that are "guilty" of using less-than-PC language frequently, and I don't think that issue is one of the most pressing within our community. I think if people feel offended by it or uncomfortable, they should say so in instances where they actually feel that way, instead of talking in generalizations and trying to completely police it.

Quote:

think that perspective is one aspect of male privilege we should discuss more in-depth. As men we are able to say "sexism or heterosexism is not a problem" but when many women I know have expressed that they feel Milwaukee is a very dude-oriented community then it obviously is a problem.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not saying sexism or heterosexism are not problems in our radical community, I can think of some issues that could bear to be addressed (although I may not qualify it as sexism). I don't think that language is one of them, and that was my point. If we're going to talk about those issues, I can think of more pressing ones, that's all. Maybe I'm wrong.

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The Spectacle wished to make us appear dreadful. We intend to be much worse.

I think it's pretty cool that this discussion is going on right now and i think that the disagreements and talk that is going on kind of proves that we should have this group. when is a good time/day/date that people would be down for meeting?

also, it's been thrown out to meet at Broad Vocabulary in an effort to take folks out of a space that they feel is "theirs." i don't care either way but i wanted to open it up for speaking on it.

I think the recognition of sexism everywhere has been overlooked. I personally know a good number of "normal" (see: apathetic) people who have openly called out on rape and been entirely ignored if not denied straight up. A huge portion of the shows we bookmobile are metalcore shows, which is a genre and scene that directly and indirectly reinforces sexism and machismo. It's insane. it's really easy to propose bats to the back of heads but i think it would be a good idea to look at ways to uproot that shit. Any ideas there??

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"Faith is believing something you know ain't true."
-- Mark Twain

do you see any interest from folks that are in that scene in confronting issues like that? i mean i would assume that because anarcho-lit gets sold to them that at least some people are receptive. maybe when the group gets started up we should really make an effort to make folks that like that music invited.

i think the idea of inviting kids from "the scene" or whatever is a really awesome idea. even though it's watered down and totally fucking boring the fact that it's counter-cultural (kind of) would suggest that these kids realize something is fucked up with what's accepted to be normal.

I think alot of the folks i've talked to are totally down with confronting sexism but they don't realize that they can do this alone as well as with other people. I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to explain the concept of autonomy to people, even though it's pretty basic to me i think it's kept as far out of the minds of young people as possible.

But yeah if we get the group started (or any group that would be in to directly confronting sexism), i think it would help to branch out to seemingly more apathetic dudes and ladies.

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"Faith is believing something you know ain't true."
-- Mark Twain

mos' def. personally i have no interest in tokenizing anyone (whether that is a racial or sexual minority or a member of a certain scene) what i do have interest in is making a safe space for members of every group to address the fucked up behaivors and mentalities that this society has raised us with.

what are the main goals of starting the collective, what to we hope to achieve or provide services for? The idea of it is pretty vague right now to me and that turns me off.

agreed. it sounds like a lot of work for not a lot of solid identity or motive to it. shit like this needs a battle plan

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"Faith is believing something you know ain't true."
-- Mark Twain